October 2007 Print

Interview with Bishop Richard Williamson

Fr. Alain Lorans: Your Excellency, you have launched a five-day humanities course for young people at the seminary at La Reja (Argentina), where you are the rector. In what way does it compare with the humanities year you initiated for the seminarians in the United States, when you were rector of the seminary at Winona?

This course and the humanities year share the same spirit. We have to take into account the total absence of human education of young people today. This is why we are organizing five days of "cultural exercises" this July. The year of humanities is an academic year preliminary to the six years at the seminary. It is a probationary year, during which the students also study their vocation. They follow courses in six disciplines: Latin, catechism, history, literature, music, and grammar.

Grammatical analysis?

Yes, because young people today scarcely know their own language, nor their own grammar. Since May 1968, as we know only too well, grammar is considered "fascist"; this is the reason why it has been removed from modern education. Grammar, in fact, gives shape to our thinking, and so it has to be banished. Likewise, in modern education, spelling is becoming completely a matter of whim. In the name of liberty, children have the right to spell words however they wish. It is the decomposition of education as we knew it in former times.

Are there other priests, or seminary rectors like yourself, who are interested in what you are doing? Is your successor at Winona, Fr. Le Roux, continuing this?

Fr. Le Roux continued this humanities year, and I think it can be said that he is now firmly persuaded of its necessity, and not simply its desirability, as if it were no more than a luxury. For young people it is more and more of a necessity, because education is deteriorating dreadfully. Three education experts in institutions in the US, as early as the 1990s–the Dominican Mother Gabrielle in the Northwest, Dr. White at the Naval Academy, Fr. Anglés at St. Mary's Academy and College–all three realized the decline in the quality of the education of the young entrants. Therefore it became more and more necessary to give them a basic formation.

Have you been able to discuss this in France with the rector of Flavigny, Fr. Troadec? Is he also concerned?

In France the problem is offset by the existence of our schools. And I believe that for a good many of the young men who enter Flavigny, coming from these schools, the problem is not as serious.

However, in Belgium I organized a little classical music session in February, and Fr. Schmidberger is also in the process of setting up a similar session in Germany for young people at the end of the week. We have to seek out the good in these young people and open up their horizons, just as we must foster vocations. But convinced as I am that a vocation is personal, I do not broach the subject during the five-day session, nor even during the year of humanities: More than ever, the idea of a vocation must come from the young men themselves, because the world which these young priests are confronted with is one of total chaos.

For example, a priest in Italy confided to me that the marriages of young couples are no longer lasting. We are seeing young people from Tradition marrying, but these marriages do not endure. It is this individualistic society which is destroying the social aspect of marriage. Marriage is social! As much social as it is personal, in fact. This dimension of marriage has been completely lost. The young people of Argentina are also affected by these evils. And what does a lot of harm, obviously, is the Internet.

Temptations are so accessible and so easy, so enticing on that little screen.

But what exactly do you yourself propose during these five educational days? What is the program?

There are four or five conferences per day: two in the morning and two in the afternoon, and sometimes one in the evening. At 9:00am there is a history lecture on the Greeks, the Romans, the Middle Ages or the modern age. It is a course with much detail, covering 3,000 years in five sessions of 50 minutes! Then at 11:00am, a conference on literature where ideally, the literature corresponds with the era studied in the preceding hour. For example, a Greek work or a Latin work. Thus we pass from a classical work of ancient literature to modern literature. A good enough program, I hope, to stimulate the appetite.

To make them want to read...

Precisely. We are striving in order that this world of the past be no longer a world completely unknown. We try to give them the basic knowledge, in order to awaken in them a desire to read.

The afternoon may be concerned with the fine arts. Last year we presented, with the help of images of course, works by Van Gogh and Rembrandt. This could also be icons. During the first year, it was the works of Picasso. Then in the evening we tackle music, which is very important. Fr. Labouche, who is familiar with rock music, is capable of giving a very interesting talk on the subject, because the young people are completely at home with rock. Rock music is woven in the very warp and weft of their souls. It is terrible, but that's the way it is. So we have to first of all suggest, then argue, that rock music is so poor. Last year and this year, we staged two live classical music concerts; that is, a pianist came and played Beethoven for example. Then we had a violin and a piano, also for some Beethoven sonatas. With a certain amount of explanation, and a presentation of the structure of these works because there is indeed a structure in this music–it seems that these live concerts were of real benefit to them. They have almost no knowledge in this domain. Last year, for the first time, they were able to put questions to three or four priests who had made themselves available. It was very interesting and there were some good questions, but for the most part these young people were not willing to speak up, they did not dare yet. Oh! The youth of today, how poor it is...

Passive, you mean...

Impoverished, rather. How difficult it is! Many of them live in the big cities. But what sort of life do they lead? What is offered to them? What are they told about life? At first sight, they walk along just one road which leads them to this materialistic world, revolving around money and politics. Politics which disappoint. The life of the nation arouses no enthusiasm. Community life for them is nonexistent. In the suburbs there is no community. In these huge towns, there is the school community, where the teachers do not set them a good example. In Argentina there still remains some remnant of good from the past. But very little, and it is disintegrating. The adults want to replace the old world with a new one. This new world is a world of the worst American kind, in other words materialistic, with money, pleasure and holidays as the top priorities. This is what they want, this is what they choose, and so all that is left for the old world to do is disappear. This new world is obviously driving out the Catholic Church. It is forcing the Church to "aggiornamentise," to fall into line. So how can we ever make priests of these young men?

How many people do you manage to reach per session?

In the first year, much to our surprise, 95 young people came. Then around 75 in the second year and in the third year, 80. It must be said that they normally have three weeks of vacation in the winter. Many of them do not know what to do with themselves for these three weeks, and so coming to the seminary and being present at some conferences where they meet their friends, does not seem too disagreeable to them. They are all interested in history. For the other conferences, it varies. But we don't force everyone to attend every lecture. We say to them "You have to be at the conferences," but that does not mean they will all be there. They have five days in each other's company; this gives an aspect of a "summer camp." We cannot say that they all strive to acquire culture. But at least they come.

Is it mixed, or for boys only?

Mixed? No, no, no! Boys only.

That's wise.

Yes, I remember an Australian long distance athlete from around 50 years ago, very much a star of his time. His Austrian coach told journalists that he taught other coaches and his world famous athlete that they should keep away from women, at least during training. He told them to follow the principle of a wise farmer: "If you want your bull to work, keep him away from the cows."

That's common sense.

It is very down-to-earth, but if we want to be serious... Several priests in Argentina have noticed that the girls are better pupils than the boys. The girls go to university, they are serious, they study, they apply themselves. Whereas the boys choose the university which will give them a degree in exchange for a minimum of effort. But what boy is going to apply himself if next to him there is a girl student who excels? He will deliberately not make the effort. Because if he does apply himself and she gets a better grade then he, his masculine pride will not accept it. This is why, amongst other reasons, co-education is a disaster. Mixing girls and boys creates all sorts of complications.

What kind of feedback do you receive? Do some of these boys come and say to you: "I have learned this, discovered that, and it has done me so much good"? Do you hear any accounts this kind?

Brother John of the Cross at the seminary hears them. And sometimes the parents say that this is opening up horizons for their children. We have to scatter the seed as we are doing, but we never know when or where or which seed will germinate and grow. I also have heard such accounts, and I am convinced that this does do them some good, because they at least get an idea of something else. We must realize that the only evening out for these boys is the discothèque. In the big city where they live, their family is not a family: dad goes to work, but if dad's income is insufficient, mom has to work too. In many countries, mom is obliged to work. And it can already be considered a success if the parents stay together! The house is empty and in general, there are no more than two or three children. So the family is not really a family at all, it is several individuals under the same roof. There are few adults who listen to these young people, and few who take care of them. Also, left to their own devices, these young people advise, listen to, and understand each other. There is no community, unless we count the school. There is no village in the big city, there is no social grouping, unless we count the college. At college drug abuse is rife, and only physics, chemistry, computers, and mathematics count for anything. So for the human soul and the human mind, it is a desert.

Is there any way out of this existence for them? Shut up in the big city, there is only the discothèque where they can "have a good time." It's suicidal; one senses a suicidal instinct behind all of this. Two years ago, there was a terrible accident in Buenos Aires in a packed discothèque, where a boy, amidst the deafening noise, threw a firework into the air. Apparently this is common practice, but on this occasion the action caused a fire. Everyone rushed to the exits. In the smoke and the crush, 200 people died. What do adults offer these young people to open them up to other things?

The young people you receive come from everywhere, and are not necessarily sons of traditionalist families.

A large number nevertheless, because word gets around among families through the priories, through traditional families. However, there are a few who come from outside. But we have no illusions about the young traditionalists!

Do they go to discos like the others?

They have to face up to the same environment. And the problem remains of Sunday Mass. Because they don't really know why they are traditionalists. They follow their parents. They have the Faith. But the teenager who comes to Mass on Sundays is subject to this non-education all the rest of the week, and this can even lead him to drug abuse. In the midst of their contemporaries, both boys and girls, faced with all these distractions, all these temptations, all this emptiness for the mind and soul during the entire week, how can they reconcile the Mass with this life? There is a chasm between the two. And it is because of such a chasm that we often lose the teenagers from our Mass centers around 14–15 years old.

And you do not have traditional schools which could supplement their education?

Four years ago, the Society opened a school next to the seminary. It was Fr. Guillaume Devillers who launched the project, and now there is a young Mexican priest who is in charge, helped by six sisters. There are around 60 pupils, boys and girls, aged from 5 to 17 years.

When you propose this literary and artistic patrimony to sensibilities which have been damaged by wild rhythms, do they still have the capacity to receive it?

Well, it seems that they are all interested in history. So perhaps we should go in this direction. Those who take part in these cultural five days are mainly Argentines. The year of humanities seems to be too much for them. The five days appear more accessible to them. I often ask the question: "Which conferences interested you? What attracted your attention?" And the answers are very varied. Sometimes it's music, sometimes fine arts, sometimes history. But I think it could be said that every conference will touch at least someone.

You offer these young people a cultural formation. Do they succeed in seeing how the spiritual can take root in it, how grace presupposes nature?

Nature, well taught, is a great indicator which points to God. Well taught, that is to say, taught in its fullness. So we see sometimes half, sometimes a quarter of these young people present at the Mass. During these five days, daily Mass is celebrated early in the morning before breakfast. For some of them it's too early. There is absolutely no obligation to be present, but a certain number of them do assist. For five days, they are away from distractions, idiocies and emptiness, and surrounded by the atmosphere of the seminary, with some of the seminarians–not many, as it is during the vacation period–and some priests. For them, it is a completely different atmosphere. Of course, amongst themselves they make a lot of noise, they do sport, they play soccer.

Is there a classical author whom one could say speaks to them more than others?

It is an interesting question. We haven't yet tried Homer. I think perhaps Homer might. But no, once again I have to say, it varies. One author speaks to some, and another speaks to others. It is quite variable.

At the Institute of St. Pius X (see pp. 3-18), I used to sound out the students from time to time: "Who is your favorite author?" The responses were surprising. It was almost a different author for each student. In France there is no longer an author considered to be the master, as there has been for other generations. That is finished; today we are witnessing a dissipation.

But each author is appreciated. Dante for example: I have talked about Beatrice and Dante. They could relate to this. No, they are not stupid–these young Argentines are intelligent, but as you say, they are damaged, they are devastated. And there is no indication that society is retracing its steps. Argentina exchanged classical education for a modern-style education 15 years ago, and this classical education is disappearing.

It is said that teachers today are mediocre, but there are certainly some teachers who have a great deal of culture and who are interested in your experiment. Traditionalist or not, are they aware of what you are doing, or is it not yet sufficiently known?

To reply indirectly to your question, the young priests of the Society at Winona and La Reja understand very well the need that young people have of such an education. And they are all very interested in it, because they realize that grace presupposes nature, because they realize that nature is very deficient.

Two years ago, within the scope of the humanities year, some of the professors were not convinced of the worth of the initiative, and many of the seminarians weren't convinced either. But when they saw the reaction of the young men who had come forward and followed this course, then they all understood. And because these boys behaved so well, the seminarians and professors all gave them their full support.

We see this in the works of Fr. Calmel, who passes with ease from profane authors to St. Thomas...

That is the most natural thing in the world. Luce Quenette also appreciated very much Racine, Corneille, and Molière. And how many vocations do we owe to the schools? Archbishop Lefebvre said of Mlle Quenette's school: "Here is my little seminary." If we remove the classics from the education of young people, where then will grace be able to take root? Fr. Calmel received a classical education, that is to say realist.

It is evident that for young people immersed in the virtual, the realism of the principle of finality means nothing. A farmer sees in a realistic way. Charlier said something along the lines of: "The difference between an intellectual and a farmer, is that a farmer makes a mistake only once, that is to say, he uses weed killer in place of fertilizer once, but he won't do it a second time. Whereas an intellectual may teach and scatter weed killer into people's intelligences throughout his entire career, without receiving any punishment, without being dismissed."

That is interestingly put. Sometimes I think that in a few years, the humanities year will no longer work, if I may say so. It is not the ultimate solution. The ultimate solution is Our Lord, and nothing or nobody else. But we should recall the example of Dante, as he presents himself in the second "Canto" of his "Inferno": It required Virgil to "engage" Dante the pilgrim, who was too far away from the supernatural life. He had to start with Virgil. Dante had a veneration for Virgil, who had nothing explicitly supernatural, but had exceptional natural qualities. Dante finds himself, at the age of 30-35 years, lost in a forest, where he comes face to face with three dangerous animals. The Virgin Mary sends St. Lucy, who sends Beatrice, who sends Virgil to guide Dante. Virgil acts as his guide through Hell and Purgatory, but he cannot go with him any higher. So he hands Dante over to Beatrice, who is able to lead him to Heaven. It's only a story, but it is certain that men can no longer be restored–when the classics no longer enlighten them–except by the Redeemer. All culture since Our Lord is the fruit of Christianity. Culture is a stairway which comes down from the Church, but a stairway can also be used to go up. We descend, but we can also climb back up.

 

Fr. Lorans is the director of the Society's news bureau, DICI. This interview appeared in the July-August 2007 issue of Christendom. Christendom is a publication of DICI, the press bureau of the Society of Saint Pius X (www.dici.org). Pictures used from photo archives of St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, Winona, Minnesota, contributed by Bro. Marcel Poverello.